Welcome to Visionary’s Pursuit, a podcast where we explore what it takes to turn your bold and inspiring ideas into reality. I'm Carolina Zuleta. I'm a life and business coach and your host for this podcast. I'm thrilled to have you here.
Hi, and welcome back to the Visionaries Pursuit Podcast. This is episode 62. This week in the United States, we're celebrating Thanksgiving. So I wanted to take a moment and share with you a reflection about gratitude.
First to remind all of us, including me, the power of gratitude. Gratitude shifts our attention. It connects us with appreciation, with what we already have in our life, and that energizes us to continue, growing, becoming the person we wanna be.
With my husband, Andrew, and our two girls, we love sitting at the dinner table and sharing what we feel grateful for. And last night, as we were talking about what we're grateful for, one of the things I became so clear to me was to be grateful for the experience of being alive, for having the opportunity to come to this planet for a limited number of years, but to have the full experience of being a human, seeing nature, the variety, the abundance, the beauty, being able to have ideas and turn them into realities, build businesses, create products.
To understand how small we are in this huge universe, and to be able to know that. The experience of being able to have ideas in our head and then through actions, through relationships, turning those ideas into reality.
The gift of using our life to create a legacy, to have an impact on other people. How cool it is to have the experience of being human, even when I know being human can also be incredibly challenging.
But lately I've been wanting to start thinking about those, very uncomfortable emotions as beautiful as well, and being appreciative for being able to feel heartbreak and fear and uncertainty and to be connected to our full human experience.
So as this holiday approaches here in the States, which I think it's a beautiful holiday when we think about it in terms of gratitude, I just wanted to share this reminder with all of us to take a couple of minutes every day to remember how blessed we are to pay attention to all the wonderful things we have in our life.
And to feel the gratitude in our hearts. Because when we do that, we become more powerful leaders, we become more hopeful, we energize ourselves so we can continue building our visions, on our mission.
And to all of you who are celebrating Happy Thanksgiving, I really feel grateful for all of you and for my clients and for all of you who have joined me in making this vision a reality. So anyway, thank you. And now let's jump into the episode.
Today I wanna talk about receiving feedback. Episodes 59 and 60, if you wanna go listen to them, all about giving feedback.
This one is when we're on the other side, when we are the ones who are receiving feedback. Receiving feedback feels hard to all of us. No matter how much work we've done in ourselves, there's gonna be feedback that hurts. There's gonna be feedback that triggers our defensiveness. There's gonna be feedback that makes us feel uncomfortable, and that's okay. It's okay that it doesn't feel great all the time.
I think it's very important to acknowledge that it does feel uncomfortable. And why does it feel uncomfortable? So the first reason why it feels uncomfortable is because it threatens our sense of identity. We usually don't hear feedback as, okay, here's data about the work you did.
Usually our brain interprets us as, oof, there's something wrong with me. This is especially true when we are the type of people that identify with our work. When we think our worth, our value as human beings is determined by the work we're putting out there. I know when I started my journey as a coach, when someone would give me feedback about my coaching, it felt so personal because I highly identify with being a great coach.
So when our identity is that connected to our work, when someone critiques our work, it feels like they're critiquing ourselves and that can be very painful as well. The second reason why, feedback is uncomfortable is because our brain a lot of the times interprets that criticism as danger.
You know, biologically our nervous system is wired to detect threats, to see who is going to hurt us or when are we gonna be kicked out of the tribe. And when we're getting feedback that is constructive or that is a criticism of something we did, we can see that as rejection or disapproval or even our very primal part can interpret that feedback as, okay, I'm gonna be kicked out of the tribe. So evolutionarily feedback can mean danger, and our body reacts with tension, defensiveness, or shutdown.
So again, if you feel discomfort when you're receiving feedback, if you feel that you get defensive, that you need to protect yourself, I want you to remember that this is a very human experience, that that is a very normal part of being human.
Another reason is because I think so many of us are so hard on ourselves, and when we hear someone giving us feedback, we start judging ourselves. We start shaming ourselves, punishing ourselves. It can take us back to old memories when we were scolded for making mistakes when we were compared to others.
Feedback can trigger old memories or patterns. It can trigger that voice inside ourselves that is so harsh and then make it a lot worse than what's really happening. But again, very human.
Another thing I see very common in my clients is that many of my clients have been really good at doing things. They've been top students. They've been selected as leaders in previous jobs. So their identity of being good, of not making mistakes is very strong. And when they receive feedback, that self-image gets challenged. And that story you have of, I'm great, I'm a great leader, can be threatened. Although again, I wanna say it's very human, it can happen as well. So if you're one of those people that has been a straight A student, a top performer, all of your life, notice if feedback is harder to receive.
And then I think the last part, why feedback makes us all uncomfortable, it's because it forces us into uncertainty. All of a sudden, we need to look at some behaviors, some ways of thinking that we've used and we know how they work and try something new or don't know how you're gonna change something or you're uncertain what you're gonna do with the information you receive.
And remember that uncertainty feels unsafe to the brain. So the normal thing is we wanna resist that uncertainty. We wanna stick to what we know instead of staying open into the unknown, open to change, open to trying something that we don't know if it's gonna work or not.
So the bottom line is, when we're humans, feedback feels uncomfortable. And that is okay. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It doesn't mean that you can't learn ways to manage those emotions or that you can't take feedback. It just means that you are human.
And for all the reasons I just explained, feedback can feel threatening, scary, hurtful. But with this podcast, I'm gonna give you great ideas on how you can see it in a different way.
Now as humans, there's four responses that are very automatic, that are typical for all of us. When we feel threatened, there are fight, flight, freeze, and fawn, and they can get triggered when we're receiving feedback the very. Primal part of us is gonna wanna come out in these four ways.
So fight looks like defensiveness. When you are explaining why you did something. When you are justifying yourself, when you're telling the other person here, lemme tell you why you're wrong.
Flight or even freeze might look like you're avoiding the feedback. You're the type of leader, that when you sense there's some feedback, you just don't create the space to receive it. Or you postpone those meetings or you keep busy doing other things to avoid creating the space to stop and reflect on how things worked or didn't work.
Or the last one is fawning. Fawning is approval seeking. So when we use this mechanism of defense, we can be the person that says, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I get it. Yes. And we're just trying to appease the other person, try to end the conversation, or we don't have a strong sense of self, so we take all the feedback and we just do what another person tells us those responses are very primitive and they're not helpful, and those are the ones that as leaders, we need to watch out.
So take a moment and ask yourself, usually when I'm receiving feedback, am I avoiding it? Am I fighting it, defending it? Am I freezing and not doing anything about it and just spiraling inside my head?
I'm just seeking approval, trying to make the other person happy. It's important that we understand our humanity so then we can transcend it. A lot of the times when I talk with my clients that the work we do in coaching is super human, right. The human response is to defend. The human response is to avoid the human response, is to take feedback critically towards us.
The superhuman response is to use our consciousness to override those automatic responses from our brain.
So now let's look at the other side. What makes someone great at receiving feedback? And I want you to think about in this way, when you sit down with someone else to get feedback, there is a tension that gets created.
And that tension, you can feel it physically. It's very real. It's palpable, it's there. And your automatic responses, as I was talking before. But what makes someone great at receiving feedback is that they have the ability to stay with the tension longer, to allow the tension to be there until they can learn something and use it to allow the tension to be there until the other person has processed their emotions and they're feeling better.
And the only way we can sit with that tension is through awareness, is through our conscious mind that is deciding, that is noticing the tension and is choosing to stay in that discomfort.
We cannot receive the feedback from our amygdala, or the more instinctual place in our brain. We need to receive that feedback from a place of consciousness. Choosing to receive it. Choosing to stay with the discomfort, choosing to stay with the attention.
Now, I wanna tell you a couple of things I've noticed in people who are great at receiving feedback. The first thing is that their identity is separate from their work. So instead of hearing that they're wrong or that they're not good enough, or that they'll never succeed the way they receive feedback is as information that is going to help them grow.
I was talking with a client this weekend. She was telling me that her boss told her, listen, I'm gonna put this plan together and I really need you to tell me everything that it doesn't work.
I need you to be super critical. Tell me all the things that I'm missing, where I miss the mark, where I need to change my tone. I need you to tell me all the things where I can improve. When we can do that as a leader is because we know that the feedback we're going to receive.
It's going to help us achieve our goals, become the person we wanna become instead of seeing it as an attack to our worth.
The second thing I've noticed is that people who are great at receiving feedback are very curious. So instead of being defensive, they are really curious and want to understand. So they typically say things like, tell me more. What impact did that have? What do you think success would look like?
By using curiosity, they turn that feedback into opportunities.
Often when people are giving us feedback, they're not giving us great feedback. They may give us feedback that is very generic or very personal, but if you're great at receiving it and you stay curious, you're gonna ask the questions to understand what's beneath it or to get to the specifics.
I know when we're starting a business and we're trying to grow it, many times we consult with advisors to give us feedback about our ideas or how we're executing. And sometimes that feedback can be very general, oh, I don't think that's gonna work. That pricing strategy is terrible. And people who are great at receiving feedback don't just accept that.
They say, oh, the pricing strategy is terrible. Tell me why. What are the obstacles you're seeing to this pricing strategy? Do you have any ideas of how I could change it? Do you have another option of how I can think about the pricing strategy?
So that curiosity, going deeper, really trying to understand the impact of something you did, or really trying to understand the thinking process the other person went through to give you the feedback, that's when you're gonna be able to stay that tension long enough to find those hidden nuggets that are gonna help you again, achieve your goals, be better, all the wonderful things about feedback.
Here's a characteristic that I see high level leaders have.
They understand that even though people can be talking about their intention, they know that the feedback is always about the impact they have. Maybe someone is telling them, Hey, you didn't care about this, or You set us up for failure, right? Someone is giving them feedback about their intention, but great leaders know that there's something beyond that that is the impact their actions had on the other person.
Instead of defending their intention, they might be asking themselves, Hmm, how was this received? What was the effect on others? How did this land with my team or with my clients? Did the impact I have match my intentions? And if not, how can I create it or help me understand that impact, what that, or they really wanna understand how their actions or their words creating an impact for another person.
People who are great at receiving feedback are great at regulating their emotions. They know how to experience frustration, hurt a sense of unfairness, and not react to it. They can notice the emotions, they can feel the sting that sometimes we experience or the hurt in our heart, or the shame coming over and notice and breathe and know how to be with it.
There is a quote that has been attributed to Viktor Frankl that says, between stimulus and response, there is the space. And in that space is your opportunity to choose your reaction. And I think great leaders know how to stay in that space, know how to feel the pain of when they receive negative feedback and stay in the pain before they react.
So regulating their emotions by breathing. By staying on their own side, not criticizing themselves, by reminding themselves that they can be with attention, that they can be with the pain, and they don't have to react to it, remove it immediately. Great. Leaders are always looking for the gift, even inside messy feedback.
I think one of the most incredible beliefs we can cultivate within ourselves is no matter how the feedback comes to me, I know how to find the 1% or 5% that is true and use it for my own growth, for my own benefit.
And when you cultivate that belief, when you know that you are valuable and worthy no matter what, and that you can take feedback in any way it comes, then people around you don't have to sugar coat the feedback. They don't have to feel like they're walking on eggshells. They're gonna be more likely to be honest with you, to tell you the things because they can trust you know how to receive them.
Also, great leaders are not so worried about proving that they're good leaders, but more integrating that feedback and becoming great leaders. So they usually don't explain or justify or defend. Instead, they change behaviors. They upgrade results. They take time and space to reflect on the feedback and think how they can implement it.
And last, what I've seen is that the people who are great at receiving feedback, they don't take feedback from everyone and they don't take all the feedback and just follow it blindly.
They ask themselves, is this person the right person to give me feedback about this specific circumstance? You know, sometimes we think about feedback also as the world of social media where people can criticize so easily and we can be devastated by any random person making a terrible comment in one of our posts.
But when we're great at receiving feedback, we can let go of those comments of people that don't know us, or don't understand us, or don't care about us, or maybe they don't have the level of experience that we're seeking to learn from. And also, we have our own agency. We have enough self-trust to disseminate through all the feedback we're receiving and choose the things that are really aligned to our values or to our vision or to our goals.
So being great at receiving feedback doesn't mean you're taking feedback from everyone and about anything, and you're applying all the things people are telling you that would drive you crazy. That would not be leadership. It's your capacity to discern, discern who are you receiving the feedback from, and which of that feedback you really wanna take in.
So if I was gonna say the bottom line of the belief, I think people who are great at receiving feedback have is that they don't need to protect their ego. They need to build their future.
Now usually all of us are not very good at delivering feedback. So let's talk for a moment about. What do we do when the feedback we are receiving is not delivered very well? This is something I often hear in coaching, right? Like I hear in coaching, how do I give feedback about this to this person? But I also hear a lot in coaching, here's the feedback I received. What do I do with it? And it can be anything from a client that you deliver the work on time, but really you can acknowledge that during the process, the client wasn't providing the necessary feedback, the communication wasn't great.
So now when you give the final product that client's not happy and is blaming you. The client may even say something like, see, clearly you didn't care about my project. You just rushed it. You just wanna get paid things. That can be very hurtful, especially when we are business founders that really care about the work we put out there.
Another common example is when you, you know, make a decision in your business and it affects your team and maybe someone in your team takes that information personally, let's say one week you think this is a set of priorities, but then something change.
And then the next week you say, you know what? We're actually not going that way. We're gonna have to pivot and go this other way. And maybe someone in your team attacks you and says, you don't care about us. We work so hard for that. Now we're gonna have to work late. The work culture here is horrible. And again, when we're leaders that we care about our people, those things can feel incredibly personal and hurtful.
I wanna give you some things to do when the feedback is delivered in a very poor way.
The client felt that you didn't care about their project, that you just wanted to get paid. That's their story. That impact is that this client is not happy with the work, is not feeling taken care by you or your company.
And what you need to remember is that you don't have to agree with the story, with the accusation of your intentions, but you can understand their experience and really respect that and get curious about it. Same thing with the employee. You maybe had to pivot because things change. You have new information that you didn't have a week ago because you're a small company and you're reinventing yourself all the time.
So your job is not to fix the employee's narrative. It's not to prove to them that you care or to prove to them that they're wrong in their story. What you need to understand is that impact your actions are having, and for this employee, the impact was feeling overworked or feeling taking advantage of, or not feeling appreciated and really understanding that impact.
So again, the biggest mindset here when we're having feedback delivered to us in not a very constructive way, is to remember that we don't have to agree with someone's story and we can still respect their experience and that our job is not to fix their narrative, but to understand the impact we had.
So how do we respond in the moment? First, stay regulated. Even if you're misunderstood or attacked, don't match their energy. Instead, take deep breaths. Slow down, let them have whatever emotional reaction they're having. And remember that you have the ability and the capacity to hold space for other people strong emotions, so don't react. Just keep regulating yourself through breathing.
Second step. Acknowledge their emotion, not necessarily the accusation, but validate how they are feeling. You can say anything like, you know what? I totally understand how this pivot or how this change in priorities is making you feel Unappreciated. Wow, I see this really matters to you. Oh my gosh, I can see this had a huge impact on you. You are not necessarily agreeing with their version of the story or their attack towards you, but you are recognizing that their feelings, their experience of this situation is real and it's to be respected. Step number three, do not defend, do not explain yourself, do not justify.
When someone is triggered, when someone has high level of emotions, they're not listening to you. So no matter how much you try to explain your intention, no matter how much you try to show them why they're wrong, they can't hear you. Physically their amygdala has been separated from their prefrontal cortex. They can't hear you.
One of the things I like to think is, Hey, I'll have another opportunity to talk about it later. I don't need to solve it all right now. I don't need to defend right now. I can stay just with the emotions and we can figure out the next steps at another time. So instead of defending or explaining, what you can do is ask clarifying questions, not necessarily to prove yourself, right, or actually not to prove yourself right.
But to really understand their experience. Questions like, Hmm, can you help me understand what made it feel that way? What impact did you experience here? Oh, what did you hope would have happened instead? So for the client that is really upset that they're accusing you, that you don't care about them, that you just wanna get paid.
You can say something like, I hear you, I understand you're not happy with the work we delivered. How would you would've wanted this to go? Or what else can we do to make it better? One of the best answers is, tell me more. Really? You felt that? Tell me more. What happened afterwards? Tell me more. Sometimes when we hold space for the other person to bring all the emotions and all of their stories out, they can slowly start regulating themselves and we can get to a more productive conversation.
Remember that curiosity reduces defensiveness on both sides. If you stay in curiosity, you're able to regulate yourself better. And when you're in curiosity and you're listening to the other person's experience, they also start feeling heard and seen, so they get less defensive.
Now, there are moments when people are not giving us feedback. What they're doing is disrespecting us, yelling at us, using really bad words, and I think that great leaders don't allow that to happen.
So saying things like, listen, I'll take all the feedback you wanna give me, but not this way. Let's take a break. Let's calm down and then let's have a more respectful conversation. Or simply standing up and saying, I'm not gonna sit here and allow you to berate me. We'll talk later. You need to have very strong boundaries when someone who has crossed that line of respect when it's no longer feedback, but it's about really attacking you, using curse words, yelling, attacking your character.
When I say becoming good at receiving feedback, again, I don't mean taking feedback from everyone and doing what everyone tells you to, or accepting it in any way it comes, having strong boundaries is part of emotional intelligence, is part of leadership.
Let's say we sit through one of those very tough moments where the other person had a lot of emotions and you are also feeling triggered. Know that after a while after you process those emotions, you can sit down and ask yourself very powerful questions such as what part of what they told me can help me grow.
Was what they were telling me about their stress, their insecurity, unmet expectations, or what part is actually productive to make a change within the company. Did this person have the full context, the expertise, the alignment with what I'm trying to create? You are going to decide what to keep.
You need to remember that feedback is input. It's not the ultimate truth.
So to bottom line this, when you are in one of those moments that someone is giving you feedback in a very unproductive way, or a very messy way, or very emotional way, remember your power to stay grounded, to be curious, to hold your boundaries, and to later choose intentionally What, if anything you wanna apply. That is emotional maturity. That is true leadership.
So to summarize all the things that I've been sharing with you today, all this reflection about how to be created, receiving feedback, I'm gonna guide you through some very specific steps that you can start training yourself to follow so you can become better at this.
I've created a worksheet with these steps. If you wanna download it, go to the link here beneath the podcast description, click it and give us your name and email, and we'll send you a guide with all these steps. Okay, so step number one, I always think that if you have the opportunity to prepare before you're going into a meeting, that let's say you're talking with a client and you know they're gonna give you feedback, or you're having an annual review with your boss, or you have a meeting with a board.
So step number one for me is always preparation. If you know you're gonna go into a meeting with a client that you expect them to give you feedback, or maybe you're meeting with your board or you're sitting with your employees, take a moment to prepare yourself, to put yourself in a state where you are open, where you are.
Reminding yourself that no matter what the other person says or how they say it, you have your own back. You are going to be open to it. You're not gonna use any of this information against you to hurt yourself. That if anything, you're gonna use it to grow. Also, assume positive intent.
Don't come into the meeting already, defensive already explaining yourself. Assume the other person wants to be helpful because that way you're gonna be in a place that you can actually listen. If you're going into a meeting thinking you're gonna be attacked that the other person doesn't like you or wants to hurt you, you won't be able to hear anything that they're saying or even to find anything useful for you. And I would really recommend continuing to strength the belief that no matter how the feedback comes, you can turn any feedback into something that helps you grow, accomplish your goals, realize your vision.
So step number one is preparation. Step number two is very short, but I think it's very important and it's when you start the meeting, ask the other person if they're okay with you taking notes.
Taking notes helps in many different ways. One, it will help us reflect back when the meeting is over, we can go back and look at our notes and really process them better.
Two. In those moments, we're feeling high emotions. If we just write, it's like another buffer between the stimulus and our reaction. I love writing when, especially when I feel very triggered, I usually ask, can I write and I start writing basically what they're telling me a lot of the times, word by word, what they're saying, because what this does is it tells my brain that I don't have to react to it, that I can write it down and I can think about it and that at another time I can come back to it and have a response about it.
Step number three, listen to understand. A lot of us don't know what it really means to listen, to understand. Many of us, the way we're listening is we're already defending in our brain, or we're thinking why they're wrong. We're thinking what we're going to say next.
Instead of sitting there and listening with the intent to understand the other person, to understand their perspective, to understand their experience, to understand their emotions. When we decide that we're going to listen to understand we are not defensive, we are there connected to the other person trying to really comprehend their own experience of the situation.
Step number four, pause before reacting. Your nervous system, as we talked about it, will want to defend you. You might feel tightness in your body or an urgency to explain yourself. That's normal, but you also have the ability to breathe, to pause, to say something simple like, you know what? Thank you. Let me take that in and I'll get back to you, or to keep listening and don't say anything.
That's something I do when I'm starting to feel defensive. When of the things I tell myself is don't say anything. Keep listening. There will always be time for your response. Right now, you can listen. I coach myself so I can stay in the moment so I can stay curious so I don't start reacting.
Step number five, acknowledge the impact. So like I said before, you don't need to agree with everything they're saying. You don't even have to agree with their story. You don't have to take the blame. But you can acknowledge how your actions impacted them, how your decisions landed with them. And you can say things like, you know what? I see how that impacted you. Or I can totally understand why you would feel frustrated. I can see how this is a very tough situation. I understand your disappointment. This is not about you being wrong, but it's about taking responsibility for your influence.
I recorded a podcast that's called the Cost of Being. Right. It's episode 28 and I highly recommend that you listen to it because in that episode I go deeper on how our decision or our impulse to be right, really hurts our relationships. And when we can't acknowledge our impact, when we can't understand the other person's experience is because we're trying to prove that we are right.
And that is not a good way to receive feedback. Actually it's very counterproductive and can damage your relationships.
Step number six, extract the useful part. One of the questions I love asking myself is, what 2% of what they're saying is true?
Maybe I can discard 98%, but I bet one to 5% of what they're saying is true. What is it? And when I can figure that out, oof, that's gold. That is really something that helps me become better. It helps me improve my relationship. It helps me stay connected to the other person.
And step number seven is to align on the future. So before you wrap up the meeting, once you understood their experience, you took in the feedback, you acknowledge what they were feeling, maybe you said, you know what you understand, or what you now see, or you take responsibility for something that was your mistake.
It's very important that you both finish with a look towards the future. Okay? Here's what I'm gonna do with the information you give me. I need a day or two. I'm gonna sit down. I'm gonna read it through again, read through my notes, reflect on it, and let's talk in two days. Or you know what client, you're upset about this. Here's what we're going to do. I'm gonna talk with my team. We're gonna bring back the work we gave you. Give us two week. We wanna make this right. You can also ask questions.
What does great look like going forward? Or, how would you love to see this handled next time? Or, what else can I do for you today to make you feel better or to repair this mistake or to repair this disconnection?
When you both create a shared target, you start repairing the relationship and the feedback becomes about collaboration and not just criticism. So remember to finish any feedback session aligning on the future.
And then after the meeting, there's two more steps.
Step number eight is decide what you're going to implement because someone gave you feedback, it's not a command. As a leader, you decide what part of that feedback aligns with your values or your vision or your goals, and decide what is it that you're gonna do with it.
Does this help me become who I wanna be? How does this improve the results I care about? How am I gonna use this to move forward, to become a better leader? To not make the same mistakes with other clients? So after the meeting with the notes you took, take some time to reflect and decide what are the parts that you wanna implement?
And the last step, but I think it's probably the most important, is show your growth. When we don't change, when we just say, yeah, thank you for your feedback, and we keep doing the same thing, we lose trust. People stop trusting us, we stop trusting ourselves. So the most powerful response to feedback is action. Adjusting your behaviors, refining your work, trying a new approach, and if appropriate, telling the other person what you're doing differently or show them how you're doing it differently.
Let your own growth speak for itself.
So there you go. Those are the nine steps to become really good at receiving feedback.
And here's the last thing I wanna share, because I think it's been the biggest lesson I've learned in this journey of learning to receive feedback. And that it's that the criticism, the feedback that hurts me the most is the judgments I have about myself is that voice of my inner critic.
It's the berating I do to myself. And as I've done this work through coaching, through my own personal development, and I've learned to tame that voice, to be kinder to myself, to have my own back, I've been able to be in a place where I can hear feedback better. Because when we turn any feedback against ourselves, then what we're going to do is defend ourselves from that feedback because we know later we're gonna hurt ourselves.
Self-kindness. Having our own back is the secret weapon to receiving feedback and allowing that feedback to grow us and make us better. All right, my friends.
Happy Thanksgiving again, and I'll see you next week. Bye.
If you're currently pursuing a big, bold idea and would love some support, let's talk. In my coaching program, I'll teach you how to manage yourself, your own thoughts and emotions. as well as your team and your money so you can turn your beautiful idea into a reality. Go now to carozuleta.com slash consult that is c a r o z u l e t a dot com slash consult and complete the form to book a complimentary call with me.
See you there!
